asinine i know

but shouldn't it be "grand company"? i've brought this up a couple of times but nobody seemed to notice. i thought great companies were the same as companies just for space wolves, and grand companies were the pre-heresy organizational division which became loyalist chapters. please correct me if i'm wrong. grand company sounds better anyway.

What, no Pie option? You gotta be kidding, right? Mr. Green

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How about "Bad Company"

Appropriate on so many levels.

so yeah, nothing to keep me from calling mine the 11th grand company, but i want to know the correct terminology. my index astartes is in another country but i'm almost positive it says "grand company" am i wrong?

ps speaking of pie, when you order a pizza in japan it usually means a tortilla with sauce and cheese on it. my guts hurt right now because i'm lactose intolerant.

	holydiver wrote:
	so yeah, nothing to keep me from calling mine the 11th grand company, but i want to know the correct terminology. my index astartes is in another country but i'm almost positive it says "grand company" am i wrong?

I only have my Eye of Terror codex handy, but in that the lost Space Wolves are refered to as the 13th Great Company.

	holydiver wrote:
	ps speaking of pie, when you order a pizza in japan it usually means a tortilla with sauce and cheese on it. my guts hurt right now because i'm lactose intolerant.

A friend of mine lived in Japan for a bit and told me the prices for what he (an American) recognized as pizza were absurd. Even from Domino's.

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Grand companies are great companies.

And I reserve my vote till the pie option appears. Smile

A prehersy company was like a whole chapter back then so I assume the chaos legions were around 10,000 men? They had no real limits, thats why the emperor imposed a limit of a thousand in case they traitor again.

If you think about it, those Ultramarines do a hell of a lot in the fluff for only numbering as many as 1000.
they should be at least 10,000 per chapter, AT LEAST.
1000 could die in a small plane crash.

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	Luna wrote:
	A prehersy company was like a whole chapter back then so I assume the chaos legions were around 10,000 men?

At least.

	Luna wrote:
	If you think about it, those Ultramarines do a hell of a lot in the fluff for only numbering as many as 1000. they should be at least 10,000 per chapter, AT LEAST.

Somewhere in the (3rd ed, I think) fluff there's reference to their being 1,000,000 Space Marines total. I believe that is meant to be just for Imperial marines, not Chaos. Still, it strikes me as being a bit on the low side.

Of course, around the same time I read somewhere that there were about 10,000 Sisters of Battle, which was just stupidly low. That has since been retconned.

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...

so a grand company is 1000 marines, and a great company is 100 marines. this is my recollections from the index astartes and space wolves codex.

you have 5 minutes to discuss this, and you must all agree or disagree, and be prepared to explain why.

sources?

In the beginning the Emperor created 20 chapters, each of 1000 Marines.

This was good.
(Names like the 1k Sons come from this).

Then with the finding of the Primarchs, quick Geneseeding technology was discovered, and the First Founding was held taking the 20 from Chapter Sized to Legion Sized.

And this was good.

The Legions grew, and grew, with each expanding to their Primarch's wishes. The Emperor's Children Grew to 30 Companies (IA article) each lead by a Lord Commander.

And this was good.

And then the Heresy.

And this was good.

The loyalist marines broke the "legions" back into Chapters of the original size (1000).

Now what are Companies? 100? 1000?
We don't know the organization of the Emperor's Children, but as we do know their rank structure (Slaves to Darkness) we can do some math.

Ranks

* Primach
* Lord Commander
* Lt. Commander
* Captain -
* Lt -
* Vet Sgt - Squad
* Sgt - Squad
* Marine
* Initiate

So if we go above squad, we have LT/Captain/Lt. Commander and Lord Commander.

If we assume LTs were per task (as today's military), then Captains would be company sized (post heresy/pre-heresy size) and Lord Commanders would command Chapter sized elements, while thinking Lt. Commanders are assigned per task.

Or we can assume Lt. Commanders managed Chapter Sized elements, and Lord Commanders did Great Companies (one or more chapter sized elements).

http://emperorschildren.net/wiki/index.php?title=Organization

So if we look then a Lt. Commander would command a chapter size force (or have been assigned fields of battle) and a Lord Commander would command the chapter sized force, or potentially larger.

In addition, we don't know the deployment sizes.

We know things like the Space Wolves 13th Company varied in size, and the Ultras split into 30ish Chapter sized forces (largest of the post-heresy marine forces that didn't have any major fighting going on during the Heresy).

In the Iron Warrior IA, it states the IW used an organization of Grand Companies, each about 1000 marines (so Chapter sized), and they had at least 12 during the Heresy.

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thanks for that. so grand companies are only in iron warriors? i am under the impression that a grand company is the equivalent, personnel-wise, of a modern-day chapter, companies are further subdivisions of that grand company/chapter, and great companies are just what space wolves call their companies.

Edit: so i've gotten ahold of the IA somehow, and it just says that the Emperor's Children had 30 companies. no great, no grand. Iron Warriors have grand companies that are the same size as companies. so where does great come from, besides space wolves?

From the Novel "Storm of Iron" the Iron warriors are the largest Traitor legion.
When they assulted this planet they only had 3 commanders and the Warmaster.
The warmaster is the Head guy of a Legion.
basically you can think of him as the closet relation to a Primarch, however, not all legions have warmasters.
lord, lieutnants, lt commanders, grand masters and whatever title no longer exist.

All the top dogs are basically just called Lords, no matter how powerful and how much they command.
A lieutenant is somone a Lord can order to do something if he is lazy and he can have any number of them.

This is not concrete though, some legions may still run off the old structure or part of the old structure like Refuse illustrated.
Some may have their own structure maybe like a Khorne warband where the biggest guy could be the boss, like the Orks.

None of this is here nor there though.
Its up to GW to clear it up and its up to us if we want to discuss this and come to our own conclusions when none of it is set in stone.
No one is right and it is only by pooling together what we know and have read and things we can assume from other sources that we can give it much accuracy.

Sometimes GW likes to re-write its stories, this is why I hope they re-write the numbers of marines because 1,000,000 like Cenobite says is just far too few.
Ive also read stuff about guardsman numbering a billion billion troops and that the emperor will never run our of humans to throw into war.

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It seems that we probably give this more thought than the guys at GW who just write things down without being as particular as we are.

Chances are people on here are more fanatical about EC than whoever wrote our sections in the codex or any other novels. So we are more likely to delve deeper into the background than they were. I dont think for a moment they gave it too much thought on if its a grand or great company.

The codex manages to dilute our character options to lords and lieutenants, without the specifics of rank. Im not entirely sure rank would matter too much to chaos any longer. The most devoted to the gods would probably end up leading in the big 4, regardless of origional rank, as they would have all the gifts of the gods etc.

Until we get a proper background in some depth writen for the EC we are kind of stuck. I feel that we are essentially ignored as we are not popular enough. Kids like choppy choppy armies or shooty ones and we dont really fit the bill.

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Each pre heresy legion was organised pretty much however the hell the commanding Primarch wanted it to be. Perturabo organised his forces into "Grand Companies" Leman Russ organised his into "Great Companies" the size and composition of these was up to nobody but the Primarch.
Judging by "Fulgrim" (which differs from the Index Astartes article) the Lord commanders are Fulgrim's primary commanders (only Eidolon and Vespasian are mentioned in the book if I recall). The each company has a captain (eg Solomon Demeter, Saul Tarvitz, Lucius) and the Lord Commanders command the captains.
The structure allows Fulgrim to split his forces, Send several companies under the command of Lord Commander Vespasian on operation A send several companies under Lord commander Eidolon to operation B.

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what is everyone;s take here on "bad company" Twisted Evil

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"Black Company" sounds better, and a lot more like something you'd actually call them, not a cheesy gimmick.

And for the sake of it, why not just "say" the companies are 1000 men. It makes actually modeling an entire company physically plausable. If you make it like everything else chaos has "Like the space marines, but spikier" you shouldn't be that far off. Then just customize from there as you wish.

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Not all Legions operated in companies consisting of one thousand marines. The Luna Wolves operated in much smaller companies, as we can see via the dramatis personae in the opening trilogy of the Heresy. They have companies numbering in the 30's.

The same with the Emperor's Children. In Fulgrim, there seems to be at least eighteen companies. If they were a thousand marines each, that'd be 18,000 Emperor's Children. Which, you can agree, is silly Razz

The Iron Warriors and Space Wolves operated in Grand/Great Companies of one thousand marines each. But the Iron Warriors were spread across the galaxy attached to various expeditionary fleets and garrisoned.

The Word Bearers, Ultramarines and Dark Angels operated in Chapters. Each Chapter was commanded by a Master, with Ten Companies; So it is done in the 41st Millenium.

The Iron Hands operated in Clans, with various companies depending on the size of the clan.

The Emperor's Children operated in companies, companies were selected to deploy in a Warzone under the command of an assigned Lord Commander. The Lord Commander would direct the campaign and devise strategies with the Primarch, then these would be passed on to Company Captains to be executed in the battlefield.

Refuse, also bear in mind that the Realm of Chaos books are largely non-cannon or have been retconned. Each Company in the Emperor's Children was not lead by a Lord Commander, well in the new fluff, but by a company captain and Lord Commanders were given control of specific warzones as overall commander and tasked with enacting the Primarch's will.

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No real numbers were given in fluff for the preheresy legions/chapters.
They could number anything and way more than another chapter/legion if their recruitment method was faster.
The only limit was finding applicants capable of early marine recruitment.
Or cloning.

They still were semi organised into a formular much like the military of now and the guilliman codex and a bit of other fiction.

The EC only had oranisation like todays chapters: (compare the two examples)

Space marine Command:
Primarch (Fulgrim)
Phoenix guard

Lord commander
A Phoenix guard.
Captains
Lieutenants
Veterans
Marines
Scouts
Recruits.
+ a whole load of extras that have not been listed in fluff yet.

The Imperial "codex following" (excludes Space wolves for example) chapters are:

Space marine command:
Master/Lord commander
Honour guard
Equerries
servitors
command tanks

Armoury
Master of the forge
Techmarines
Tech servitors
Tanks

Apothecarion
Chief Apothecary
Apothecaries

Fleet command
(space ships)

Librarius
Chief Librarian
smaller Librarians

1st Company
Veterans

2nd Comany
marines etc

3,4,etc etc

I believe it would look similar to this preheresy but without caps, so it doesnt end at the 10th company and each company does not end at a hundred soldiers.
I also believe the Primarchs were trusted to organise themselves and their armies to how they wished so a Primarch could basically do anything.

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Mm true, in the "Tales of Heresy" anthology in the "Call of the Lion" short story, we see the Dark Angels legion at a current strength of 10,000 marines, but a Calibanite Chapter Master named Belath, says there are 20,000 more recruits on the way.

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Last edited by Urath on Thu Jun 04, 2009 2:28 pm; edited 1 time in total

Thanks for that.
It's great to know numbers.

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	Quote:
	From the Novel "Storm of Iron" the Iron warriors are the largest Traitor legion. When they assulted this planet they only had 3 commanders and the Warmaster. The warmaster is the Head guy of a Legion. basically you can think of him as the closet relation to a Primarch, however, not all legions have warmasters. lord, lieutnants, lt commanders, grand masters and whatever title no longer exist.

Actually i think they menction their home world in the eye of terror being massive, mysterious and i think holding more of the legion, along with perhaps Perturabo.

I myself like to think that's there's more marines in a chapter and a grand company. Because otherwise space marine chapters wouldn't make much of a dent in a universe of a million worlds. Maybe they could make sure to be at the big battles i don't know.